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Re: Exact meaning of "rsquare" at end of summary(coxph)

To: "Hunsicker, Lawrence" <lawrence-hunsicker@uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Exact meaning of "rsquare" at end of summary(coxph)
From: Ravi Varadhan <rvaradha@jhsph.edu>
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:52:50 -0500
Cc: s-news@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
Hi:

There is also a nice paper by Kent and Quigley (Biometrika, 1988) that 
describes a measure of dependence between the explanatory variables and 
the response variable, under more general regression settings.

Best,
Ravi.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunsicker, Lawrence" <lawrence-hunsicker@uiowa.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2004 10:00 am
Subject: Re: [S] Exact meaning of "rsquare" at end of summary(coxph)

> Terry and all:
> 
> I appreciate deeply Terry's point about it not being clear what 
> reduction of
> unexplained variability means in a Cox analysis, and that there 
> are not
> unique definitions of this concept.  Actually, my intent in using this
> concept in the paper that I am preparing goes very much along the 
> line one
> part of the discussion in the Korn paper.  I am doing a "Baseline
> Covariates" type of paper following a clinical trial.  What I want 
> to make
> clear to the reader is that, although there are many nominally 
> significantindependent baseline predictors, only the first few 
> make any substantial
> contribution to the overall efficiency of the model, and even all 
> of them in
> aggregate only explain about a third of the variability.  The measure
> computed in Terry's summary.coxph makes that point sufficiently 
> clear.  I
> personally have pretty strong reservations about the whole 
> business of a
> "baseline predictors" approach to prognostication, though identifying
> factors that are strong predictors has some utility in trying to 
> make a bit
> more precise and to add power to other ad hoc retrospective 
> analyses.  So
> from my point of view the exact measure that I use is probably not too
> important.  Ease of computation is important, and in this 
> particular case,
> the ease of computation is complete, as the number falls out of 
> the analyses
> that I am doing anyhow, thanks to Terry's including it in his 
> summary.coxphfunction.
> 
> Larry Hunsicker
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Therneau [mailto:therneau@mayo.edu]
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:11 AM
> To: lawrence-hunsicker@uiowa.edu; s-news@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
> Cc: Michael.Schemper@vm230.AKH-WIEN.AC.AT
> Subject: Re: [S] Exact meaning of "rsquare" at end of summary(coxph)
> 
> 
>  There are dozens of definitions for an R-square for a Cox model. 
> I really
> liked the following paper
> 
>  Korn, Edward L.  , and  Simon, Richard   (1990), ``Measures of 
> explained 
> variation for survival data'', Statistics in Medicine,  9  , 487-
> 503 
>  
> which highlights, for me, one of the main issues.  Say that we are 
> followingpatients with advanced lung cancer (a median survival of 
> < 2 years), a
> model has predicted 10 year survival for patient X, and the 
> patient actually
> lived 20 years.  Any physician would say that this was perfect 
> prediction,and most R-square statistics would say that it was very 
> bad -- worse than
> telling a 3 year survivor that he had only 6 months.
>  What exactly R-squared SHOULD be for survival studies is a hard 
> question.  
>  What is used in coxph is a moderately good measure proposed by 
> Nagelkirke,that also has the virtue of being easy to compute.  
> 
>  Michael Schemper has given, I think, the most thought to the 
> issues and
> has published several papers.  (He also points out that 
> Nagelkirke's idea
> appears earlier due to someone else -- I forget who).  To dig 
> deeper I would
> recommend looking at his work.
> 
>       Terry Therneau
>       
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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