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Re: Concerns about SPLUS version 7

To: "'Thomas Jagger'" <tjagger@blarg.net>, s-news@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
Subject: Re: Concerns about SPLUS version 7
From: "Liaw, Andy" <andy_liaw@merck.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:08:30 -0400
I'll chip in my $0.02:

1. I find Insightful's marketing blurb for the big data library
   in the Enterprise Developer version a bit puzzling:  I just
   check the price of a dual Opteron 275 server with 8GB of RAM
   at one vendor, and it is under $6500 (with 16GB that jumps
   to over $12000).  Anyone care to disclose the price tag of
   the enterprise developer edition?

2. There are companies that will want the commercial support
   for the software.  One quote I heard at LinuxWorld last year
   in NYC: "Companies want one throat to choke on."  Insightful
   is that throat for S-PLUS.  There's none for R.  If some 
   company is willing to do for R what Novell/RH/etc. does for
   Linux, the situation might be different.

3. Somewhat related to #2 above, the "21 CFR part 11 compliant"
   banner that S-PLUS now carries counts a lot in certain 
   industry.

4. BDR said in one of his talks a few years ago that R probably 
   has more bugs than S-PLUS.  However, bugs in R get fixed a 
   lot quicker than in S-PLUS.  Also, R is developed at a much
   faster pace than S-PLUS.  That it may have more bugs is 
   understandable.

5. If a question posted to R-help/R-devel gets no response,
   there must be a good reason.  I do not view friendly 
   non-answer as any more helpful.

6. For the people that Rolf mentioned: if they had learned the
   "source is master" paradigm, they would not have that problem.

7. Forbidding usage of single-user license software as backend of
   web/remote application is not new:  Matlab has had that 
   restriction for years.  I think this is reasonable, as it's 
   no longer being used by only one person.

8. John's betamax analogy might be a bit off: I believe it was
   widely recognized that betamax was superior to VHS.  I'm quite
   sure there's no such concensus on R vs. S-PLUS.  I won't get
   into the Mac (or soon to be Mactel) vs. Wintel debate...

Cheers,
Andy


> From: Thomas Jagger
> 
> I use a university wide license for version 6.2 and 7.0, but 
> even in the
> academic environment license management is difficult. While I 
> could use the
> features of large data objects, I don't want to deal with 
> having software
> that no longer works after a certain date. Certainly for our batch
> applications that run unattended this would be difficult. My 
> solution is to
> stay with V6.1 as needed and switch to R for features 
> available in R but not
> in S (V6.1). Especially when it comes to spending government 
> money, one has
> to be careful. 
> 
> For some applications, R works much faster. As core storage 
> gets cheaper and
> 64 bit becomes a reality, I do not think that my need for 
> Splus large data
> objects will be necessary, by then R will have a package (if 
> it does not
> already). If it does let me know, I would like to try it out 
> on some large
> climate data sets. 
> 
> The other downside to Splus V7.0 Enterprise edition is that 
> it seems to take
> longer to load. I have not benchmarked performance of V7.0 as 
> compared to
> V6.1. 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: s-news-owner@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
> [mailto:s-news-owner@lists.biostat.wustl.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Fowler, Mark
> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 11:42 AM
> To: kwright@eskimo.com; s-news@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
> Subject: Re: [S] Concerns about SPLUS version 7
> 
>  Kevin, your perspective on S vs. R comes closest to my own. And with
> respect
> to renewing the S license, the driving force is maintaining web-based
> applications that would otherwise have to be converted to R. 
> Having already
> converted some simpler ones, I have a reasonable appreciation 
> for what is
> involved. The task is sufficiently onerous that I dread 
> having to convert
> the more involved applications. But pressure to switch to R comes from
> above, due to both pricing/licensing concerns, and 
> disappointment with the
> rate of development of StatServer. I'm one of only a few left that are
> allowed to renew S licenses. New staff are required to choose 
> a cheaper
> route, with R encouraged. And the licenses of recent users of S were
> discontinued this year, so I suspect active licenses may be 
> restricted to
> historical application developers. I expect that a viable 
> alternative to
> StatServer will be the end of S at our site. I can't help 
> feeling a bit
> sorry about that, S made such a positive difference for so 
> many years (I
> came to it from GLIM, can you imagine my relief?). 
> 
> 
> >     Mark Fowler
>               Population Ecology Division
> >     Bedford Inst of Oceanography
> >     Dept Fisheries & Oceans
> >     Dartmouth NS Canada
>               B2Y 4A2
>               Tel. (902) 426-3529
>               Fax (902) 426-9710
> >     fowlerm@mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
> >
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kwright@eskimo.com [mailto:kwright@eskimo.com] 
> Sent: July 12, 2005 1:39 PM
> To: Rolf Turner
> Cc: tzamouranisy@louisdreyfus.com; s-news@lists.biostat.wustl.edu
> Subject: Re: [S] Concerns about SPLUS version 7
> 
> 
> Well, Rolf, I think you need to try harder to fathom. :-)  
> This debate is
> not new, but here are some of my current reasons to use S-Plus, both
> idealogical and practical.  (I do also use R).
> 
> 1. Competition can be good.
> 2. S-plus has tools for connectivity to other software.  For example,
> opening Excel in S-Plus and calling S-Plus functions from 
> Excel.  Neither
> feature is as easy in R.
> 3. S-Plus is part of StatServer, which is a nice system for 
> enterprise-wide
> statistical analyses and reports.  Doing the same in R 
> requires expertise in
> some hodgepodge collection of things like SOAP, PERL, etc.
> 4. Some organizations will only use software that can be purchased.
> 5. When I send email to R-devel, I cross my fingers that (a) 
> Someone will
> please answer and (b) I won't have my question (or myself) critiqued. 
> Insightful support is friendlier and always answers 
> (admittedly, not always
> with a solution).
> 6. I have filed fewer bug reports about S-Plus than I have about R.
> 7. S-Plus has some libraries that are not available in R.  
> For example, the
> robust library is nice and I think it is better than the 
> robust statistical
> methods in R.
> 8. Insightful is a channel for turning a few million dollars 
> of research
> grants into software that benefits us all.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Kevin Wright.  S-Plus user 1994-2005.  R User 2001-2005.
> 
> 
> > I cannot for the life of me fathom why ***anyone*** would use SPLUS 
> > anymore.  No one that I know does so.  All use R.  The only problem 
> > that ever arises is of the nature of ``Whoops!  I have this 
> data set 
> > stored as an SPLUS object, and I can't get at it.  And none of my 
> > mates can help me out because none of them has access to SPLUS 
> > either.''
> >
> > This problem is decaying exponentially however.
> >
> >                             cheers,
> >
> >                                     Rolf Turner
> >                                     rolf@math.unb.ca
> 
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